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5-Leaving Topaz, to Detroit & Reflections

How did you get out of the camps?

They wanted us to disperse, so they encouraged us to leave. Of course I took the first opportunity to get out of there as fast as I could. So they said, "Go to Detroit", and I said, "OK, I'll go to Detroit." I didn't want to go there but I went. That's OK because it worked out; I met my husband there. To be, that is.

Can you describe your trip to Detroit?

Yeah, we got in this rickety old train, it just barely moved. I don't know where they got those trains from. I think it was one of those coal-powered trains, a choo-choo train. Fortunately a friend of mine, who was in high places in the travel bureau, so I took a circuitous round, I went to Minidoka, and from Minidoka I went to Detroit. So I was able to visit some friends in Minidoka. But now I don't know who I visited.

How many people were on the train with you?

Gee, I don't remember. I think there was one guy, but I don't remember. I guess it was a mixed train then, I don't know.

What was it like being independent from your parents in Detroit?

Free at last! My mother said, "If you love your child, you let them go." And that was our model. When the time comes, you have to let them go. And she said that "Now is a time for you to leave." So, that's fine.

Why didn't your parents accompany you?

Well, they couldn't, yet, at that time, because they were Japanese citizens. At that time they were encouraging the men to join the army. American citizens to disperse themselves, but not back-door from whence they came, because that was not the purpose. It was to disperse us throughout the United States. But not to the other coast.

When you got out, was the post-war community different?

Oh no, because it was a brand new community. Detroit, Michigan, I'd never been to Detroit, Michigan, before. But then I ended up there at the big race riot, and I didn't know what it was about. Because the guards were running up and down the street, guards with chains and I didn't know what was going on. It was the first time I saw African Americans, actually. So, I just didn't know what was going on, until someone I was working with said something nasty and I thought "Oh my goodness this is terrible!" It was just discrimination all over the place.

In Detroit was there more racism against the Japanese Americans or the African Americans?

I think the African Americans. Come to think of it, when I became treasurer of the company we put an ad in the paper for people to come work for us, and people would come and apply. I would always have to tell them, the boss told me that "If it is another ethnic group just tell them the position is filled." And I felt so bad about it. They would go away dejected, and that's the way it was. And it still is, because when I was in an intelligence unit in Japan, there was a another group, a woman that came to work for us, and the general just fired her. Had her transferred out. That was a reason, he told me that was the reason, her race. So that's not fair.

Do you remember the first thing you did when you got to Detroit?

Yes, they assigned me to the YMCA and they gave me a private room. In the middle of the night they knocked on the door and said "Oh, we didn't know you were Japanese American, you have to go to a certain room." So they pulled me out and put me in another room, where the other Japanese Americans were. They did not especially welcome this stranger, you know, the three of them were pals, and here comes this stranger. They worked at the same place, but I was completely ignored.

That was your first night?

Mmm. First morning, too.

Can you describe the place that you lived? What did it look like?

Oh, it was just a room. You know, like a hotel room.

Simple?

Yeah, very simple. Small, and they didn't give me any closet space or anything. You know, like, "Fend for yourself, girl!" I was an intruder.

How did you meet your husband?

Oh, that was many years, two, three years later. There was a church that welcomed us and gave parties for us. That's where I met other Niseis. I met a doctor, and he had a roommate, and I was a patient in the hospital and his roommate went sailing by, and said hi to me, and that's how we met.

Can you tell us why you were in the hospital?

From stress. Overworked, as I was working during the day and at night.

Can you describe the family you stayed with in Detroit?

Yeah, it was a German fellow, his name was Boytenmueller, and he belonged to this big church in downtown Detroit. There was a plea out, were there any open houses that would take in these evacuees. He went home and told another German American family that "This woman needs a place to stay," and would they take me in. So they did take me in, and the only condition was that I give them my ration coupons. In those days you had to have meat and sugar, I don't know, we had coupons. They said, "you can eat with us," and pretty soon I was part of the family. Yeah, a German American family. That's the way it was. The German fellow that introduced me, Mr. Boytenmueller, gave me a job at night in his print shop. So I was working day and night. After I left, I understand they took in another Japanese American woman, and she became the head of nursing at UC Medical Center. I think she just retired recently.

What was their home like?

It was just a single home. They had a little boy, who was two years old.

I was more or less a babysitter too, when they wanted to go out. And pretty soon we'd go on picnics together and eat together. Can't you just imagine one can of ham, you needed a ration book right, and we had that for Sunday dinner and that was such a treat. Just one can of ham, and we'd slice it up and it was just a treat. And we all each got a slice. Spam, Spam, that's it. Not ham, Spam.

What else did you get to eat during that time?

Well, a lot of potatoes and lot of Twinkies.

Hospitalized

Can you tell us more about going to the hospital for stress? That's quite unusual, was there something else?

Well, no, I got an infection. And they put me in the hospital because they thought the infection wasn't improving itself. The other doctor I was going out with, he was a resident there, so he managed to put me in the hospital through his... strings, you might say.

So this was a man you were seeing prior to your husband?

Uh-huh. Now you're getting all the details, my goodness!

How were you treated in the hospital as a Japanese American woman?

It was fine. I didn't feel any discrimination because there were two Japanese American residents there, my husband and his roommate. They were short of men at that time because most of them were in the service so they were clamoring for able-bodied men to fill the residency program or the internship. They got paid only twenty-five dollars a month for, in those days, and that was a lot of money.

Meeting Her Husband

Can you tell us about the first time you met your husband?

Yeah, we went to a church sponsored dance, and he was with another woman he was... oh. Now the juicy part comes! Do you have to know all this?

Anyways there was a Japanese family in Detroit, and my husband was invited over, I understand, by Mr. Ford himself, to work on soy beans. He was an expert on soy beans. Evidently it was for what? I don't know, what purpose it was. Anyways it was an experiment. Experimenting with soy beans. So this family established these samples in Detroit and when all these wonderful evacuees came, oh boy, they had three daughters. So he invited all the eligible bachelors over there- where am I going with this?

My parents had a story of when they met, they said they knew they were going to be together. Was it like that with your husband?

Mmmm- Anyway I went to this dance, and I was with somebody else, and he was with somebody else, and all of a sudden he says, this husband to be says, "I think I want to spend the rest of my life with you," and I said "Ah!" and I was somebody else. That was it. That was it. We were married in three weeks.

Wow. Did you guys move in together?

No, no. We didn't do things like that in those days. Big mistake, my husband used to say.

Was your husband Nisei too?

Yes.

And had he been interned?

No. He sold his microscope, he was at UC Med school, he sold his microscope and the American Friends Services, they helped him. But he couldn't get into medical school at that time because it was very difficult unless you were on the V12 program. So it took him two, three years. Meanwhile his parents, their money was all tied up, so he didn't have tuition money either.

Where was he living while all the other Japanese Americans were being interned?

Oh, he went to Salt Lake City and then he went to the friendly city of Philadelphia. You know, where the Quakers are.

Can you describe your wedding?

It was just all his fellow colleagues that he went to medical school with, and that's it.

Was there a celebration?

No, no. Because in those days parents didn't come out. Relatives didn't come out. So just a few friends.

Living in Japan

Generally, what was it like living in Japan after internment?

My husband went with the US Medical Corps., but he went as a civilian. Then I joined him six months later. I was playing bridge everyday, and looking for souvenirs. My husband thought, "Well she'd better get to work here instead of playing around." So he more or less said "You should go to work." Because he still had to go into further training, I guess. I mean he didn't tell me why. He didn't think it was fair that I should be playing all day. So I went to work and they put me into civil intelligence. Now where do I go from there?

What exactly were you doing..?

Well first I went as a G2, which is the lowest form you can be as a government employee. And I thought, oh my goodness this is so dumb. Finally the colonel, who was head of the department, he kept giving me better and better and better jobs, and I ended up as a research analyst. Then I got top secret rating, top top secret. I worked on interesting cases, which I cannot talk about. So it's interesting isn't it.

Is that true, you really can't share with us what you were working on this many years later? Why are you hesitant?

For instance, there was gun smuggling going on, and we'd get reports from the CIC, and I had to evaluate what the source was, how reliable they were, different systems. So I reported as one country was doing this, and then I got called in by the colonel, and he said, "you're going to create an international incident, so stuff that." And I thought, what am I working here for, if I can't report it? So, they put me on another case, which was the Tokyo Rose case. She was trying to come back here. There was another case. They were reclaiming their citizenship here and things like that.

What was your involvement with the Tokyo Rose case like?

They wanted for me to delve into her background because she was appealing her conviction, the circumstances. I, myself, as a Nisei, could understand how it must have been difficult for her to be in Japan at that time, to be caught in Japan, and being a US citizen. Maybe she was forced into this Tokyo Rose deal, but I really don't know the details. Maybe she should have said no, but in order to survive- see, when you're in Japan, and you're a Japanese citizen, and the family that was taking care of her, relatives, were getting money from the United States. From their family, and once there was war, there was no more money coming in. So why should they have this extra mouth to feed? You can understand that, right? So I don't think she had a choice in a way, but I don't know her real circumstance because I never interviewed her myself. But it could happen. So by that time, before I got involved, I left. I just got so emotionally involved.

How many years did you spend in Japan?

Just about three years, I think. '47 to '51? Yeah. I tried to leave earlier, but my husband got frozen because of the Korean War, was it the Korean War? Yeah.

Reflections

Do you think internment is taught enough in schools?

Well, now it is. I think when my daughters, who are in their 50's now, I was the first one that was invited to the high school to talk about internment in the social studies class. I didn't want to do it. At that time all the famous ones who are getting all the publicity now, refused to participate, they said they didn't want to even talk about it. But later on, they were very open, made documentaries, got all kinds of medals and stuff. But now, I think, like you people, are interviewing us. I think it's good. I think, didn't they have a pictorial essay or something, at the museums? Women, diversity and strength, and things like that.

The pictorial essay made a tour of the United States. Because people have approached me, that they've seen my picture. But that's many years ago, when I was 30. So you can imagine how old it is.

Did you ever distrust America after leaving the camps? What was it like to come back into American society?

No. No. It was not at all. Well of course we couldn't buy property either, they were restricted... We couldn't buy a house, we could not buy property, because we were the first Nisei that wanted to do it on our own. Even other Niseis who came back from the war, they couldn't buy houses on their own. Matter of fact, they wouldn't even take my father's remains at the cemetery. He said, "the Asians belong over there." And I said, "No. Uh-uh. I'm going to challenge it." He said, "Lady, don't challenge it because we have a Congressional Medal of Honor Chinese and he couldn't get in to this certain section. He had to go over there." So they discouraged me. And I said, "OK, I'm not going to have him here," so I moved him someplace else. I thought, even if you're dead they're discriminating!

So after all of that you still had faith in America?

Yeah, I got over it, because things have changed so much. We were able to buy this property, and the real estate man turned us down. He says, "No. You go someplace else, where there are other Japanese Americans." My husband says, "No, I'm not going anyplace else." When we got home to Castro Valley there was a phone call, and the lady that owned all this property, the real estate man told this lady about us and she says, she called me up personally, and said "I'm going to sell it to you. It's my property, I'm selling it to you." It turned out that her son studied under a colleague of my husband's, at Wayne Medical School. It's a small world. She opened this whole place up for us and of course I understand the neighbors objected to this. A lot of Niseis don't talk about that because of the discrimination we faced 40 years ago here. They didn't allow Jews in here, at that time. There was only one Jewish family behind us. So, she said, "We have something in common." But things have changed, so much. Now, more than half are Jews, here, now. So it's good, it's good.

Do you find that you experience any discrimination today?

Well, just my group. Because everybody lost someone in the war, and when I played bridge they made comments. "Is that the Japanese Squeeze?" or something like that. Well, what's the "Japanese Squeeze?" I mean, to me, it's something else.

What do you mean by "your group?"

My age group, you see, because they've been in World War Two. My neighbors said to me, "Wait a minute, the only Japanese I knew was our cook, and our gardener. I didn't know Japanese-speaking professional people." I mean, just ignorance.

You don't think among the other generations there's more prejudice?

No, I don't think in your generation or the generation before you, like Howard, I don't think they're that- I mean, everyone has their prejudices, but not like in my generation. Which is good, which is good.

Is there anything else you'd like to say before we wrap up?

No, no, I think it's great that we're marching forward.

Why do you think your story is important?

Oh, I don't know. I think it's, why is it important, I think it should be on record, what happened to us. Because it could happen again. When my daughter was at Sarah Lawrence, there was a little bit of tension there against the Mid Eastern people, and she was out there protesting, I have a picture of her. She felt, for me. When she went to work for somebody in a big corporation she wrote to me, my daughter did, and said, "Do you mind?" because one of the partners was for evacuation. Would I be hurt, if she went to work for him. I said no. But things have changed, people have changed. It's just like the Chief Justice, hasn't he changed? I mean, not this one, not the present one, but Warren? Yeah.

Do you think that internment could ever happen again? Maybe not with Japanese, but in this political climate?

The possibility always exists. Unfortunately. I hope not, and I pray not. But there's so much tension now. I really don't know. I hope not.