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Did you know immediately that something was wrong?

Oh yes. I was very much aware of what the situation was. I finally left Germany in 1937, so I was going to school under the Nazi regime from 1933 to '37, four years.

On the subject of anti-Semitism that you asked me about, there's another incident that I want to share with you. In 1935 when I was thirteen years old, and it was getting to be time for my Bar Mitzvah. You know, when the Jewish boy comes of age, religiously. A few weeks before my Bar Mitzvah, our synagogue was broken into and vandalized. I still remember that various objects - torah scrolls, prayer books, prayer shawls and so on - were taken out of the synagogue and in a muddy field just right near the synagogue the vandals set fire to them. The fire didn't completely destroy everything because it rained that night and put the fire out eventually. But still it was all desecrated. This happened just a few weeks before my Bar Mitzvah was supposed to be. Which is supposed to be a very happy event.

Interestingly enough, the man who was the burglar was caught, and at that time the Nazis still wanted to do everything by the book. They didn't want people to go and take the law in their own hands, so they tried the fellow and they gave him a jail sentence of about ten months, which apparently he served.

But here is how times changed A mere three years later, on November 10th 1938, this same man was the principal perpetrator who set fire to our synagogue. On that day - which was called Kristallnacht, Crystal Night - practically all the synagogues in Germany were burned to the ground, including ours. The man who did most of the job was the same man who had burglarized it three years earlier. But this time he was considered a hero. About three or four years after the war, he was tried for this act of arson, and he was sent to the penitentiary for about six years.

What do you remember from that day in 1935 when your temple was desecrated?

I remember seeing the Torah scrolls opened up in a muddy field next to the synagogue. I remember seeing them where the burglar took out the Torah scrolls, opened them up, and tried to set fire to them. But due to the rain that night, the fire was out and of course they were completely demolished. But I remember seeing that. It was devastating. Particularly since I was going to be Bar Mitzvah in a couple of weeks.

We had such a small Jewish community - it only consisted of seventy people - that we hadn't had a Bar Mitzvah in that synagogue for about thirteen or fourteen years. I was going to be the first one in thirteen or fourteen years. It was going to be really an event for our little community and here the synagogue was broken into and desecrated. I don't suppose that he took all the Torah scrolls out because I know we had some Torah scrolls when I was Bar Miztvah. He probably didn't take all of them out. Maybe just some of them.

What was the community's reaction to the desecration?

The same as mine! Same reaction. We were just really devastated. It was a terrible feeling to have that happen.

Did you end up having your Bar Mitzvah?

Yes! I ended up having my Bar Mitzvah and the synagogue was full of people - relatives who came from out of town, and everyone in the Jewish community was there. It was quite an event. The portion that I read - you see the custom is, on every Sabbath during the year, to read a section from the Torah, the five books of Moses. In the particular section that was read that Saturday, three of the most famous words in the Torah appeared, and it was in the portion that I read. Those words are "Love thy neighbor as thyself." It always made a great impression on me.

How did your feelings on the Nazis evolve or change as you entered high school and became more aware of the situation?

As I told you before, I can't pinpoint any particular event except the boycott day - that I remember. But otherwise, you know, it was a slow process - how it evolved and how I began to know more and more. I do remember reading a book - and how in the world I got a hold of that, I have no idea - because it was a history book about the Nazis rise to power, and I still read that in Germany.

Now, you know, the Germans burned books, but I have no idea how in the world we got a hold of this particular book, which was a very critical analysis of the Nazis rise to power. One of the things I remember reading in it - which was an event that was not publicized in the papers, was kept quiet, happened in 1934 - a year after the Nazis came to power.

This is what I read in the book: There was a power struggle within the Nazi party. The Nazis had their own paramilitary organization, which was called the S.A., which is the Storm Troopers, the Brown Shirts. Then they had the S.S., which was an elite unit, and at first it was the bodyguards for Hitler. Then it became much more generalized - much bigger - but it was still an elite unit and eventually it even became part of the army.

Between the S.A. and the S.S., there was sort of a power struggle, which would be predominant. The leader of the S.A. - the Brown Shirts - was a man by the name of Ernst Röhm. Hitler decided to tilt the balance in favor of the S.S. and the generals of the regular army. He had to do away with the leadership of the S.A.

One time, when the S.A. had a meeting in Nuremberg, Hitler and the other thugs from the S.S. invaded their headquarters and killed them. They called that night the "Night of the Long Knives." You might have heard of it. Then they put out the word that Röhm was a homosexual - and that was a crime and that's why they killed him. Nonsense. Maybe he was a homosexual, but so what? I remember reading this still in Germany. I still don't know how in the world we got a hold of that book.

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