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6-Emotional Impact and Life Lessons

Transcribed by: Alison G (2007)
Please report errors to: info@tellingstories.org

Did your career - that took off and blossomed soon after your return to the states- allow you to set aside your pain and unsolved feelings about the war, and about your liberation of Dachau.

No it didn't. In fact, for thirty years, I didn't talk about any of my experiences to anybody. Besides, Sally wouldn't have been interested if I had, I thought. She was pretty much within herself a lot. No, fortunately, both from the standpoint of my war experiences and experiences with the Holocaust, my work and being in the army reserve, I was able to get involved in those things, and I could forget for a while the things that were causing nightmares. And I had them. Boy, did I ever have them.

How and when did all of this eventually catch up to you.

I had plenty of pain. All the time, after the war was over, because of what I'd gone through, like a lot of people had.

What kinds of nightmares did you have? Can you describe them for us.

Mostly combat-oriented, but some about the Holocaust, the people I had experienced in Dachau, seeing them die in mass. And one of my combat experiences, I dreamed about it a lot, which was a patrol I was sent out on to retake the outpost line when we were pushed back some twenty miles. This was done by the regimental commander, and I took a patrol - my platoon - out to retake the outpost line. We didn't get very far before I saw these binoculars looking at me. I yelled, "Krauts!" and most of my platoon went that way, and I went this way, (and) ended up in a minefield. Suddenly, artillery was going off, landing in the minefield, and in the German area, and everybody thought I was a goner. So did I. I said, "I'm not gonna get out of this. I'm had." But I crawled - fortunately, I was in a kind of a depression - and I crawled backwards for a long ways, because I didn't know whether the Germans were there, because they were firing at us, and artillery was coming over and landing (in their/ near) mines. I thought, "I'll either get blown up by a mine with an artillery shell hitting it, or the Germans are gonna see me and put machine gun bullets in me." But I got away. I got back to the main line, to our company, and they said, "How did you get out of there?" And I said, "I don't know. But I'm here! And I'm alive!" So that was one of the things that I dreamed about a lot—being in that minefield with bullets popping over my head, and artillery shells going over, and explosions everywhere.

I would have nightmares about that, and about (in-mass) people dying. I dreamed about the crematorium, and watching bodies being shoved into the ovens. Those were the kind of nightmares I had. And those went on for a long time. I couldn't ever talk about it, yet it was always there, in my mind, in my job, (in? and?) being so comfortable in my job, which was in rocket propulsion, being a rocket scientist. That could ease the pain for a while.

How have you recovered?

Yes. After I married Marge, I didn't really talk about it much to her. But then she knew that I had had these experiences so she started asking me questions about my war experiences and about the Holocaust. So I started talking about it and telling her my war experiences and that led to more and more healing. And then, when we went to this reunion and that's when she and I decided to go to Europe again and traversed the combat trail. That was very healing because we went back to the places where we had stiff combat. We went to (Wersberg) and the (Festoon) castle or fortress up on the hill, which had a "Heil Hitler" on it when we got there and a rainbow when we left. So that was indeed healing. And to go to Dachau again, it was very, very tramatic for me at first. In fact, I totally lost it when I saw the insulators on the fences and remembered those poor souls who killed themselves on the fence. I just totally lost it. I don't know how long I cried, but a long time.

I would break down on several occasions early on and just burst into tears. In fact, when I described to the director of "The Last Days," talking to these guys in the barraks, I broke down. I started crying and everybody that was listening to me beyond the screens started crying too. It was very emotional. I guess I didn't totally recover, really until after we had gone to Europe. Going back to Dachau was very healing and going along the combat trail was very healing.

I can talk about it. As a matter of fact I've given talks to various organizations - the Defense Language Insitute a couple of times and to the Rotary Club a couple of times, the Kiwanis, and to churches, including my own, and to this organization I belong to calls, SIRs - Sons In Retirement. I gave a talk to this group that I belong with where I met the Leutenent General, his name is Bob (Coffin). That's a story in itself. May I talk about that?

That's a great story, you should tell it.

I met him through a mutual friend I was in SIRs with, this friend's name is Stan Patterson, and Patterson said, "I have a friend that belongs to 'The Group' with me and I understand you were at Dachau when he was. We want to get you together." They decided to go to this restaurant in a hotel in Carmel - the General lived not too far away from this hotel and they have a great buffet there. Stan Patterson, and a fellow named Jim Emory and Bob Coffin - Leutentint General Coffin - met for lunch.

We talked for 2 hours before we even had lunch. There were two guys at a table next to us and we said, "We are going to talk about our experiences in combat and you may want to move to another table or we will," or something. And they said, "No, no, we'd like to hear what you are saying." Most of the talk was between Coffin and I because we had like experiences - he'd been detailed by Patch to go save SS guards. After our talk - by the way, he said, "Just call me Bob." "You are a Leutenint General, I'm a bird colonel," - that's way down below a Leutentint General. "I can't call you Bob!" "Oh yes you can, we are both retired, so call me Bob." "I can't do that, Sir." So Patterson said, "Well, call him 'Bob, Sir.'" That's what I call him now, "Bob, Sir."

Anyway, I was invited to join "The Group," which meets at Pebble Beach, or the Monterey Pennisula Country Club clubhouse or their beechhouse. They are both just fantastic places to meet because we have this absolutely wonderful lunch - if you can call it a lunch, it's really like a dinner. My introduction to "The Group" was to give a talk. After I was invited to be at the head table - and at the head table, Patterson, who was the president of the club, invited all these high ranking officers and CEOs and euntrapenurs at this head table. He said I was sitting with ten stars: a leuteninte General, two major generals, three rear admirals, it adds up to ten stars. And one brigadeer who's name is Dunn, Richard Dunn, which is another story.

At one of "The Group" meetings, I met Richard Dunn, Brigadeer General Dunn, and I said, "I'm wondering if we are related, because my folks are from the south." And he said, "Mine are too." And I said, "Mine are from Mississippi." And he said, "Mine are from South Ireland." So I said, "I guess we are not related. Because of my talk, they invited me to join "The Group." It's just a wonderful group. We all have the same sort of backgrounds. A lot of military, and a lot of high powered business people. A lot of the retired abt some of them working in high places. It's just a wonderful, wonderful group to be with.

I'm curious how your World War II veteran and liberation experiences have impacted parst of your life. Talk about how it's affected the way you've raised your children.

I guess, being a military man—and I was, for thirty-four years, retired as a full colonel - I guess I was a bit strict. That was one reason that I had left on a couple of occasions, I speparated from my wife. Marge and I got together because there was some thought that I would divorce and we'd be together. Well, I couldn't go through it, so I went back to Sally and the kids because I didn't trust Sally to raise them right. I thought I was doing a better job because I was more of a disciplinarian. And, I loved my kids, tremendously, and I missed them a lot, so I went back and stayed back there for ten years. But then even the kids couldn't hold me back anymore and I missed Marge so much. I was really in love with her, not with Sally because Sally was her ownself.

So we divorced and I found Marge again. She was a high powered officer in a company that she and engineers had formed. We were dating and I was comutting from Pasadena—where I had stayed at JPL, Jet Propulsion Lab, and commuted on Fridays up to here to be with her. And go back Monday morning. Then, next week, the same thing. Then finally we said, "This is ridiculous." "You're wearing yourself out and your car—my '65 was groaning as it came up the road, I-5, and finally ending up on Monterey. I put miles, and miles, and miles on that. Finally I decide to fly up her and fly back. We did that for awhile. But that still was ridiculous. So, we decided that I should find another job, which I did in Sunnyvale, at Lockhead, Lockhead Missiles and Space Company.

It seems like you've established such a wonderful life for yourself here. How do you think speaking to student groups like us and telling your stories is part of the life that you've made for yourself?

It's again, healing. I haven't gotten totally over it, I guess, the healing is almost gone, but when I talk, mostly about the Holocaust experiences, Dachau - and the movie experience I had - that is healing in itself. I think that has helped me in the life I lead, to be able to tell people what happened. Telling it to younger people that haven't experienced that is, I think, important. Just like what you are doing in this project you are in. If we let a lot people know what happened, then there will be no more naysayers saying it never happed. There are still people saying that, that it never happened.

In fact, there was a paper put out by an organization in Costa Mesa that declared that, "The Holocaust never was," and it was well circulated. I have met people and we talked about Charlotte (Say) who jumped all over me several times because of what I had done and what I said, and reported in the paper. Any you saw it on the wall in there. She was a Nazi, came from a Nazi family. There are still naysayers, people are saying it never happened. Even the president of Iran said it never happened. There are still a lot of people denying it. But we know it happened, because "we was there!"

I think, all of that, my experience in my civilian profession, which has been so fruitful, that that, along with my healing situation, my trip to Europe, and being married to a wonderful lady, Marge, has helped me a lot, the way I live now. And I love it here.

If you could have a message to the world pulled out of all your combined experiences, what would you tell the world?

That there is hate in the world, still. We won World War II, but there's still wars going on. We need to find a way to live together, to shut down the terrible experiences we are faced with all the time. The situation in Yugoslavia, which was horrific, ethnic cleansing again; the situation in Africa, which is awful, that people are being slaughtered by the ton in Africa. Some day, some how, we need to embrace all cultures, we are not embracing them now because we are fighting a war in Iraq against, I guess other religions, religious organizations, I guess, the Sunni and the other faction that's in a civil war. We can not win that war, I don't think, although we are trying. That would be my goal, my message to the world, that let's stop war. World War II killed how many million people on both sides? Why? Because a madman got ahold of a country and turned them into a war machine. A madman in Iraq did the same thing, and we went to war over it. There's a madman in Iran that is pretty scary too, (Adimenishad), the President of Iran, and he could start a war too, particularly if he gets nuclear weapons.

My thought is how can we possibly get the world together to stop fighting? Can't we get along? So far we haven't been able to. That would sure be my word to the world, to anybody that would listen. Of couse, my talks and all the testimony that Steven Speilberg and his Shoah Foundation did to interview people who had been in death camps, and liberators. He's interviewed over the world some 80,000 I think it is now. The Holocaust Museums that tell what went on to the Jewish people and the other people who had been executed. For what? They didn't do anything but tried to live lives. These damn wars are just wiping out the world. And they just keep going on and on and on; Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, the wars in Africa. What's the point? That's my word to people when I give talks. Why do we have to keep doing this? The "War to end all Wars" was World War I, and that didn't end all wars. 1918-1933 was not very long before another war started, started by Hitler. Does that answer your question? That would be my goal. I don't know whether I'll make it or not because I'm almost 83 and I don't know that wars will end before I go too long. But I tried. I try.

That you very much.

Thank you!