page 9 of 10
Play MoviePlease report errors to: info@tellingstories.org.
5-Getting Out of Camp and St. Louis
[The audio quality below is poor due to equipment problems.]
When you say you were getting out, does that mean at the beginning of your internment you were thinking of ways..
Of ways of going off. Yeah. Of going off to school, primarily.
So you were constantly working on that?
[gestures "yes"]
How did you do that again?
How did I go off?
How did you work on getting out?
Through my friend in St. Louis.
Did you propose the idea to her, or her to you?
She proposed it to me first, yeah.
What about your family?
I left them. My sister was still in high school.
What was your first memory of being out of the camp?
The first one was an experience that really gave me a feeling of how giving people can be. It was on the train, out of Billings, and in those days the trains were crowded. There was no such thing as reservations, you just got on. And there was no seat, and I sat on my suitcase. It was a young American soldier who gave me his seat. I thought, wow. Wow. Here I am, out on my own, and who was it who helped me?
Did you feel more confident after this?
Yes, yes. I think knowing that there were people willing to help.
It was pretty scary though, at the beginning, I would imagine.
Yes, yes, yes.
How did you finally get out, get the permission to leave?
I must have applied for it. There must have been a way that they were allowing people out. I didn't go out as a student, I went out because I had this friend who, just because she was there, because it's after I went to St. Louis, there was an office of the War Relocation Authority, they called it, the WRA, and I went there to look for employment.
Were many people applying to leave camp?
I don't know because when I left I was by myself. So here I am, in camp for my protection, and I'm leaving camp to go by myself to travel to St. Louis. So that meant I had to go out, took a train to Billings, Montana, spent the night there, then took the train on to St. Louis, which went through Lincoln, Nebraska, I had to change. Then I had to change again in Kansas City. So here I am, traveling all by myself.
What did your mother and your sister think of you going out on your own like that?
It was all right.
Why didn't they go out with you?
My sister was still in high school. I could go out and find work, and try to get to classes, whereas, what would my mother do, who was ill? And my sister, who was still in high school. So they opted to stay.
Were they able to leave?
They left later when camp was about to close, so they wanted people to leave. That's when they left.
When you reached St. Louis, were you at all intimidated by being alone in a big city?
Not at all. Not in St. Louis. In St. Louis, they didn't know Japanese. We went around saying we were "Orientals." I worked at a medical school, I was fortunate. Because I was at a school which was a private school, many Nisei—fellows and women—were there too. So we would all say we were Orientals and get away with it.
What was your first job when you got out of the camp?
It was working in the Bacteriology Department of the Medical School. Washington, they call it, Washington U.
What did that job involve?
In the Bacteriology Lab, you have media that you grow your bacteria in, and I was a media maker. I prepared all the materials for the medical students, for their class.
Did you experience any racism at your new job?
No.
That's surprising, that you experienced no racism at all.
In St. Louis, in those days, it was the Afro-Americans who were segregated. We just didn't get any of that feeling. That's when I first felt what it was like to be segregated, not me, but others. I was in a situation where I got to know some of the Afro-Americans, and knew that they could not go to a restaurant with me. Couldn't go to the hospital, unless it's a hospital, just for them. Couldn't go to the college, unless it was just for them. None of that. We were treated like, special treatment, as it were, because we weren't different. They didn't know the Asians. It's an entirely different atmosphere from the West Coast.
Did the African Americans ever tell you about the racism they experienced?
They didn't have to tell me.
Did you ever hear them express their own opinions towards it?
I'm trying to think, because in the department where I worked, the woman who did our dishes was Afro-American. My helper, my aide, was an Afro-American woman. If anything, they wanted to know more about me and my life, because they had never come across an Asian. There was, however, in that same department, an Asian woman who was working on a doctorate. There was a professor who was from Japan. If anything, I could talk with the women in the department, and we could exchange ideas, we could exchange how we were treated. It was an eye opener, for me. Then this friend who was working on a doctorate wanted to marry a Caucasian man, and they couldn't get married, not in Missouri. They went to Indiana.
Because she was African American?
No, she was Japanese.
Oh, Japanese American.
Yes, but they weren't allowed to marry in Missouri.
Did you ever feel any animosity towards Caucasians after you got out of camp? Any distrust?
Of the Caucasians? By whom?
Did you ever feel any animosity towards them?
No. No. It's as we said, on this quilt, I think it says, "shigataganai," meaning it can't be helped. That's the way it is. So it's all on our quilt. "Gaman," and "shigataganai." Now you've learned those Japanese words.
Can you tell us some more about your brother?
Yeah. He served in the army. Then because he knew some Japanese he taught military intelligence at the language school in Minnesota. When war was over he came back here to finish his schooling and went to Cal. That's why he was here.
What do you mean by "housing project?"
Housing project. During the war, Kaiser Shipyards had a housing project right out here for their shipyard workers. Then when a lot of the workers left, that space was open. The Japanese, as they came back to this area, didn't have a place to live and that was open to them, the Richmond housing project. And then there was one in Berkeley, it was called Cordinesez, I believe. So, until they could find more suitable housing, they lived there.
Do you know what the rent was?
I should know, but I don't. It wasn't much. I was thinking, was it fifty dollars? That sounds about right. It was a one bedroom. I think now, "My goodness, there was my brother, his wife, two little girls, my mother, and I came!”
What was your occupation when you returned to the Bay Area?
I worked at Shell Development and Analytical Lab.
How long did you work there?
Eight years.
Marrying a Chinese Husband
Can you tell us about your wedding?
My husband came here with a group of a hundred as interpreters. He was an officer in the Chinese army when he came here. He had no family. His family was composed of the other fellows who had come with him who lived in this area. So our wedding was—I would say we were married in a chapel in Berkeley. The people there would have been just my immediate family—my brother, his wife, their two little girls, my sister, and then his friends.
Was there a celebration afterwards?
Yeah. We had a reception, alright?
Did you run into any opposition from your respective families when you decided to marry?
No. I should tell you the story of an earlier one. I was dating a Chinese American fellow and we thought we'd get married. His mother says, "No," because I'm Japanese. So, that was it. Then it's a few years later that I met my present husband. Here he was from China, by himself. At that time I don't think there were any relations between China and the United States, but later when he could, he wrote to his mother and said he was going to marry this Japanese American. She said it was alright, because I'm not Japanese, I'm American.
He was in the Chinese military?
He was found fleeing from the Japanese army in China.
Was the mutual friend who introduced you two to each other Japanese?
No. She was Chinese-American. It was unusual at that time for a Chinese-Japanese relationship.
You dated at least two Chinese men?
Two of them. Right.
Is there more to the story why you were attracted to Chinese-American men?
The Japanese fellows are going to see this? No! [laughs]
Is there something more to tell us about that?
You mean off the video, right? Why did I pick? Often, as I hear my Nisei woman friends complain or talk about their husbands, I would often say to them, “That's why I didn't marry a Japanese.” [laughter]
Were you consciously seeking an alternative?
I think so.
How do you think you were treated differently vs. had you married a Japanese man?
My husband's up there, right? [laughter]
How's his hearing?
It's pretty good. If you know the Japanese custom to—and the way we were brought up—where the fathers are "it," as it were, made all the decisions and all that. The women waited on them. The Chinese and the Caucasians that's not that way. We are treated equally, more consideration.
Did you have to wait on your brother?
No. My mother might have. He being the only son, right?
Returning to Bay Area & Reflections
After returning to the Bay Area, have you felt less of a Japanese presence?
I have not felt it. I know some farmers have, I know in some areas the Japanese have never returned. Like the city I grew up in, Alameda. It used to have all these little shops run by Japanese folks—laundry or grocery stores, barbers and all. You go back there now, there's one florist, and it might have been his father's. I'm not sure it was his father's. They just haven't returned. Not to those businesses. They're gone.
Why were you willing to come back to the place you had to leave?
Because we knew the weather was better here. That's the big attraction of the Bay Area. And my brother was here.
Where did you say your home was?
I was born and raised in Alameda.
Do you believe that internment is a possibility in today’s climate?
Yes. I heard that some money has been allocated to build five detention camps. I thought, "What for?" Then I hear what's going on with the immigrants, and I think you get the border patrol, and where are they going to put those that they find? Of course, there is the Mid-Eastern situation. When you look different, it’s easy.
How do you feel about the possibility of future internment camps?
I would fear that it could happen again. I think it so easily could. But how to prevent it? You have to voice an opinion. What could one do besides his opinions? Join groups that oppose it. We go on peace marches, but that's a different story. This becomes preserving civil liberties.
When did you want to start telling your story?
I had a neighbor who was a teacher, fifth grade teacher, whose field was social studies. As we got tot talking she said, "You need to talk about it." So, the very first place I went was her class. Since then, I haven't stopped. That's about fifteen years ago.
What is the most important thing for the students who will watch this interview to hear?
It's the same we always say. This has happened to us, we don't want it to happen to anybody else ever.
Do you think other adults you speak to understand that it could happen again?
When I speak to adults, it's usually my peers. They would say they had neighbors who all of a sudden disappeared. Or their students in the class disappeared. They didn't know what happened to them. Now they know.
What about your daughters and also that generation?
I think I had said at one time that I thought my daughter would have resisted. The very daughter I thought would, said she wasn't sure. Depending on what was going on.
But do you think they believe that this could happen again?
I thought it could happen again at the time of the Korean War, with the Chinese.
Did you talk about that?
At that time I was not talking.
How about with your husband?
I think he would have resisted.
So he believed that it could happen as well?
Yeah.
What year were you married?
'53. Korean War was about that time.
Did you ever have any conversation with your husband about what might happen if they collected all the Chinese?
They couldn't have. There were too many. But they would have collected specific ones, just like the FBI did.
He would have been a prime person to collect, right?
Yes.
Did you ever have a contingency plan?
No. We were just hoping it would never happen. No. No contingency plan.
Do you keep a watch personally on what's occuring politically in regards to this sort of thing, interment?
Uh-huh. PBS. That's where I heard abut these detention camps.
Do you talk to your grandchildren about internment?
I've talked to their school. I've talked to their classes, but not directly to them. It would be interesting to get their reaction.
