page 10 of 11
Play MoviePlease report errors to: info@tellingstories.org.
4-Answering "No"
What provoked you to answer 'No' on both Question #27 and Question #28?
First of all we were confined in a camp. And our freedom was limited. And as citizens, we were not being treated as citizens. We didn't have the freedom of movement. Our rights were violated. And all these things. We weren't being treated as citizens.
And you felt like an American?
An American citizen, yes. And then for them to ask us, 'Are you loyal?' Obviously we were loyal, I mean, I could never think of myself as being Japanese, even though I ate tofu and I ate sushi and all that stuff. But I was American. I was an American from the time I started school. And to question us, in that situation, was I thought wrong. And then to ask us to serve in the army, be eligible for the draft or even volunteer—they [U.S. Military] came seeking volunteers for the army—the 442nd. And they thought that there would be hordes of people volunteering but no, they only found the few, not many.
Did you answer 'No' for being eligible for the military for your own dignity or you didn't wish to fight?
I was a pacifist. I couldn't carry a gun and think of killing someone. But if one's drafted, they train you to kill someone. To kill the enemy. But I don't know. I don't know if I could have gotten into that frame of mind. I had trouble killing chickens. But that's a factor that entered in, I think. That I was a pacifist. On the other hand, I also felt resentful of the treatment that we were getting, and the fact that I had believed in being a citizen, with all the rights. I didn't feel that I was being treated as a citizen. And they shouldn't be asking us—the fact that they questioned our loyalty—this was an outrage for me.
After the questions you were segregated from the "loyal" Americans, correct?
Yes. The purpose was to move us out of camp. And so they wanted to check who were loyal and who were not. And so those who declared themselves loyal, they moved them out. Either to outside, if they wanted to go out, or to another camp. And then those who refused to answer the questions, or answered 'No', were kept behind and then Tule Lake became a segregation camp.
And you were in the segregation camp?
Yes. So we didn't have to move. We stayed in the same apartment.
Did the security increase at the camp after segregation?
Oh yes. The security increased. The army came in whenever there was trouble. Then they built eight feet high extra fencing.
With barbed wire?
Yes, we already had the barbed wire, but they built another eight and it became really a penitentiary.
Was anybody in the now segregated Tule Lake camp ever physically harassed by the guards?
If you got too close to the exit or fence, you'd be warned. I mean, "Don't get too close." So we stayed our distance so that it was safe. I mean, why test the guards? I mean, they were trigger-happy already. A lot of them had just been transferred from the Pacific where they had been active. They had the guns, and you don't know, it's very easy. Just pull the trigger. They were probably conditioned to shoot. It was a scary situation; we didn't get too close to the fence. They would have their bullhorns or whatever and they said, "You better watch out. You stay away from the fence," and so forth.
Do you feel that the dignity that you preserved by answering "No" to both questions was worth the years of you life lost, the years you could’ve had if you answered ‘Yes’?
We spent maybe two extra years in camp, in prison, because of our position. Now, what we lost was the years afterwards. After we came out and we were forever characterized as having been in Tule Lake, having been disloyal, having been "No, No" and not really accepted as a regular American citizen. So that that reputation followed us. That was what was kind of difficult about our decision. Other people [non-Japanese-Americans] didn't even know about the camps. But the Japanese who were sent to camps, they knew exactly what our position was if we said we were in Tule Lake after a certain year—1943. So the ostracism that we experienced, that was what was painful.
Did you feel like there was more pro-Japanese sentiment after the segregation?
I suppose, because there were 15,000. But then when they made the Tule Lake Segregation Center, then all the "No, No's" and the disloyals from the other camps were sent to the Tule Lake, so there were 18,000 of us. That doesn't mean that we were all disloyal. That included kids and family members, because we were all a family group. I'm sure there were more loyal folks than disloyal.
Was there activism to get out of the camp and if there was, did you take part in it?
No. We couldn't get out of camp unless they let us out. And it wasn't until late 1945, and 1946 that they started to release us. So they had to make sure that we were safe to be running around.
Was there any resistance movement in the camp to fight back?
No, I don't think so.
During part of your time in camp you were an assistant block manager - correct?
Yes, I was an assistant for a while and then I became a block manager.
Did you as block manager ever interact with American officers running the camp?
No because it was rather late in the camp experience that I became block manager so I didn't really have any dealings with officials or police. I don't remember, I don't know what I did. If someone got sick or something, I had to call the ambulance or something like that. But there was nothing political at that time that I remember getting involved with
Why did some prisoners at the camp exclude the "No, No" boys?
There was a lot of tension during the Registration. We kept watching what the others were doing. Then there were people who were trying to influence others, like the loyalty groups people will try to talk the others into becoming loyal or the disloyal ones would look down on the loyals. There was a lot of conflict there. And this I think carried over later, as I mentioned earlier, when one said that one was in Tule Lake, then right away you were placed in a certain category, that you were disloyal and that you didn't serve your country and so forth. So there was this division and a lot of conflict. And even today, I would not feel comfortable with some people who were very pro-America, and feel that they did the right thing and that we did the wrong thing. Yes.
Did you think there could be Japanese-Americans spying on the United States?
Yes. That's what they claimed. The government claimed that the Japanese-Americans were spying, or involved in espionage, or things like that.
Did you know anybody who was a spy?
No, no.
Did you ever hear of anybody mention anyone as a spy?
No. I don't think so. There wasn't any. No.
Did you ever hear of anybody mention anyone as a spy?
No, no.
Did you know of anyone—before you went to the camp—that wanted the Japanese to win?
Oh yes, yes.
Could you talk about that a little?
I mean, these were Japanese. They were not citizens. They could not become US citizens.
Issei?
No, these were aliens. People from Japan. And so, their country was Japan.
Were they in Tule Lake?
Yes, they were in Tule Lake. Those who wanted Japan to win. Now these might have been Japanese-Americans also, because they were under the influence of the leaders who were Japanese. But I think they were misled. There were some—there were quite a few who went to Japan after the war, and then, of course, they tried to come back here, because it was a defeated country and very different from what they had expected. There were some young people, misguided people, I say, who felt that Japan was going to win. And so they wanted to be on that side. But they were honest about it. And they realized that they were wrong, I think.
Did you feel like you were ever loyal to Japan?
No, no.
Did it ever cross your mind that you'd be supporting the Japanese?
No. Of course not. I was often in conflict with my father, who was a Japanese alien, and naturally favored Japan in every conflict. With China, with Russia—well Russia was a little before our time—but he was following Japan. And Japan was making conquests in Manchuria and China and so forth, and Southeast Asia. He was following that, and I would not agree with him.
How did you feel about your future?
Yes, we thought of what would happen to our future, especially during the registration, when we had to declare ourselves. And that was the warning that was given to us by the people who favored being loyal to America, and by older people who "knew better," that we should think about what would happen in the future. "What about your future" you know? "You were jeopardizing your future," and we felt that we didn't care. This was how we felt, and this was how we would withstand it. So, it entered our minds, but the situation at the moment was more pressing, but we didn't want to change our decision. My father posed that to us, and he was outside.
Did you communicate with your family outside?
Oh yeah, we wrote a lot of letters. He wrote a lot of letters; he wrote more letters to us than we wrote to him. He was a letter writer.
Were you in touch with your family in Japan, as well?
No, we weren't, because communication with people in Japan was kind of difficult at the time. And so I had, on my mother's side, cousins, an uncle, aunt, but we never connected with them. Now on my wife's side, she had relatives in Hiroshima. But they didn't communicate, because communication during the war was pretty difficult.
Could you talk about your wife's relatives in Hiroshima?
They were right in the center of the bomb, and they were working down on the lower floor, it was a two-storey house, and the roof fell on them. That protected them. They had to crawl out, and their oldest boy, who was about eight, managed to crawl out and get help. So they all got out, and then that first night they put up a tent, and spent the night in the tent. And then they moved out of Hiroshima, I think the next day, maybe, so they escaped the rains that came that week. Many people died from that radiation of the rains.
The father was an engineer, and he was in the army, as an engineer, working on the zero planes that were being used to bomb the U.S. So he escaped the bomb that way, and so far no one has died from the radiation. The mother whom we visited passed on about three years ago. She has four cousins living, and one cousin came to visit us last year. They carried a special sake from Hiroshima. I have a box that I saved. They carried this in their suitcase, and brought them for us. One is a sculptor, and he worked for a granite company. The original Hiroshima Memorial Monument was not stone, but it was something else. Plaster, probably. But later it was carved out of stone, and he was the one who did that, because he's a sculptor. So he's connected to that monument.
