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When you were in the cattle cars, what did
you know about where you were going?
We
didn't know a damn thing where I was going. I had no idea where I was
going. I had never heard of Auschwitz until we arrived there.
You said that when you got off the cattle
car they gave you a sack of food. What did it consist of?
Let
me explain something to you, OK? The only garments we got was a pair
of trousers and a jacket. And these were summer ware - very thin. No
underwear, no socks, no handkerchief, no toothbrush, nothing. A pair
of trousers, and a jacket, and a cap, and two pieces of cloth with
your number on it. And the belt and the shoes that you had brought
in. That was it. That was it!
How long was the trip on the cattle car?
Three
days and three nights, about. Did you have any guesses
about where you were headed? No idea. Were
you traveling with anyone that you knew? No. I was totally
by myself.
How old were you?
I was
just then had turned nineteen. I had turned nineteen in June. Less
than two months later, from a late teenager - I had to grow into an
adult in overnight and to become aware of my own existence and what
I was going to do about it.
How did you feel?
I had
no feeling, I didn't know what the hell was happening. As I said, you
come out of that train it's total confusion and the purpose of it is
total confusion. They want you to be totally confused and not comprehending
what's happening there. It was all done on purpose. Scholars who have
looked into it have written voluminous books on just that aspect alone
- how the SS had totally devised this whole scheme, this system of
throwing these people who arrived totally off balance so they could
not get a quick resistance together. The whole purpose was keep these
people confused.
Could you elaborate on the interactions of the people
around you in the cattle car?
Even
though I was 19 at the particular time in 1943, it was very difficult
for me to understand sex. I had never experienced it, not even at that
age, and all of a sudden, I saw some couples on the train. We were
not packed
standing up, we could sit down and lie down. The car that I was in was
not compressed. And I saw these young couples copulate, not caring
who was around
them. And I could not understand it and it was something new to me. Frankly
I didn't know what they were doing to begin with but then when
I realized what
they were doing it was hard for me to comprehend that people let all kinds
of taboos go by and do because they felt at that particular point
in time perhaps
that life was ending for them and they wanted to do just that.
People
went in the middle of the train – in the box car where we had
the drum – and they would take off their pants or whatever and they did
their thing. They peed in it, they pooped in it and nobody cared
about who
was seeing it or watching it. It was absurd that all of a sudden that all
of these things that we had prided ourselves up to a certain degree
– when you
went to the toilet you closed the door, other people shouldn't see what
you’re doing – all of a sudden these became common things.
Nobody cared.
How soon did this happen during your time in the boxcar?
Probably
two days in it started off. The first day was the moping day. "What
the
hell are we doing here," type thing. "Where are we going?" And then all
of a sudden, we have no control over it. That’s when these
things begin to act up.
Throughout your train ride and your experiences
at Auschwitz, being a young male - did you ever consider suicide?
I have
asked that question of myself a number of times and I can't for the
life me remember that I wanted to do away with myself. It's weird.
But then there were other people whom I knew - who later on I got to
know at Auschwitz - who just ffffp! - ran into the wires and electrocuted
themselves.
When you were in the cattle cars, did you
have in the back of your mind that you might be going to the same place
where your sister went?
No,
because the men's camp and the women's camp were totally separated.
And I didn't know where I was going, nor did we know where my sister
had gone. There were too many rumors about to know for sure. It's only
after the war - in fact it was in the 70's - early 80's when my wife
and I went to Amsterdam and the Dutch Government had just come out
- or the Dutch Red Cross, with books that listed every person who had
been Dutch who had been either murdered, shot, or sent to concentration
camps. They listed you by name - birth date, the camp, what date you
were picked up, what camp you went, and the date you died. And that's
where we found out where my sister had gone or where my parents had
gone to die.
Can you tell us if they tattooed you?
Right
here. They do it with a needle and ink. And not very attractive like
they do today because, remember, these were fellow prisoners who did
all this. They were not tattoo artists per se at that time, they were
all taught.
Did people get infections?
I don't
know. I didn't. It is still there - I still have it. A friend had it
removed. She has it at home in a jar of alcohol - the piece of skin
with her number on it. She is the wife of a doctor. And I said "Where
is it?" She said, "Right on the shelf."
Why do you choose to keep the tattoo on
your body?
It's
my medal of honor. It's important to me. I know what happened to me,
but this is a badge of honor to me that I survived it.
Do you ever look at it, like in the shower?
Oh
yeah, all the time. What do you feel like? Do you experience
nightmares? No. Well I occasionally have a nightmare. My wife
will wake me up. But they have diminished, ever since we wrote the
book together - my wife and I - that has diminished to almost to a
non-happening. But everyday when I'm in the shower and I'm washing,
I see it - I don't pay any attention to it - but I see it. It's there.
I am aware of it. I'm not afraid of it.
Could you show us your tattoo?
Sure
You said in the last interview, you talked about
how it made you feel seeing the tattoo now. Has it evolved?
The
tattoo is basically a reminder that I was in Auschwitz. When I shower
in the morning or at night, I see it and it doesn't mean anything to
me anymore. I have friends who had it removed. She's a doctor's assistant
who lives in England. When we saw her last, which was '99, I said, "Where's
your number?" Because she had short sleeves on. She laughed and
she said, "It's on the shelf." I said, "What do you
mean it's on the shelf?" And then he showed me in a jar of alcohol,
or some substance, there was a piece of skin with a number in it. I
said, "Why did you have it removed?" She said, "Well,
it was a quirk, one of those things that I suddenly wanted to do because
when I was in the doctors office working as a nurse, I had short sleeves
and they would always ask me about the numbers. So, finally I decided
to take it down, put it on the shelf, and that was one less question
they would always hit me with about the concentration camps."
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